the following information has been posted especially for bible-believers & "newbies" only...thanks!
i found this golden "nugget" surfing the net.. someone made this astute observation shown at the link below, and i just wanted to share it with all concerned here, especially after jws around the world just studied paragraph #17 of the nov. 15th, 2013 issue of the watchtower last sunday.. link: http://meletivivlon.com/2014/01/20/obey-jehovahs-shepherds-w13-1015-p-21/#comment-7711.
"jude" posted:.
On the same link, there's a very insightful comment by Meleti at January 21, 2014 at 3:06 PM regarding W.E. Vine identifying the League of Nations with the beast of Revelation 17 - before the JWs. The Watchtower organization gives the impression that they have unparalleled insight in identifying the beast and predicting its resurfacing from the abyss as the UN. But the truth is that others had made that identification before the Watchtower did!
if jw's can have blood fractions then why can't they celebrate a fraction of a birthday or christmas or masturbate just a fraction of the time???
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You'll get a kick out of how this video ends:
hi guys and gals,.
i have written an article that explains how the watchtower society gets from 607 bce to 1914 (http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/faqs/why-is-1914-important/) but i need some input so that i can write an article on how they get from 1914 to (via 1918) 1919.. are we talking about ezra, 1:2-4 when the persian king cyrus allows the israelites to go and rebuild the temple 3 and a half years after exiling them?
if so, how has the watchtower used this passage to get to 1919??.
In addition to the point about Jesus ministry being 3.5 years (October 1914 + 3.5 years = 1918), the release of Ratherfraud and the gang from prison 1919 supposedly constitutes indisputable proof that Jesus appointed them in 1919. Talk about eisegesis and self-serving interpretations of events and scripture!
would love to hear comments on what is being said on the paragraph which states that if the wt demands you drink the kool aid, you should do it - even if you don't understand why!.
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look forward to any replies..
I think I understand problemaddict's point about how the Jonestown referrence could kill the discussion with JWs. It's not that the Jonestown referrence isn't a fitting warning about what blind obedience can lead to. It's just that the typical JW is so indoctrinated that he won't think deeply enough to see the connection being made, but will only see on the surface that the Jonestown massacre is nothing like what currently exists among JWs and would just dismiss you as an apostate exaggerationist.
Regarding the point about not seeing JWs following through to drink the Kool Aid here are some facts to ponder on:
1. Most/many JWs believe that the organization is "Jehovah's Organization". Someone who has left the organization is described as someone who has "left Jehovah". Already, most/many regard the instructions and teachings coming from the organization as coming from Jehovah. Subconsciously they equate the organization with Jehovah.
2. JWs already devalue their present life. It is not uncommon to hear a JW, in arguing against the taking of a blood transfusion, make statements like: "should we disobey Jehovah to prolong our imperfect life in this old system of things?"
3. JWs are already willing to die - to essentially commit suicide - and are doing it in obedience to the organization! How so? What does a brainwashed JW do when his life depends on receiving a blood transfusion or treatment involving primary blood fractions and there are no effective alternatives? He refuses, essentially committing suicide! Brainwashed JWs, individually, are already drinking the "Kool Aid" by refusing lifesaving blood transfusions! And let's not forget about past JWs who drank the "kool Aid" by refusing organ transplants back when the organization taught against it.
Add to all of the above this new directive to be willing to obey the organization even if what it says does not seem sound or strategic from a human standpoint. In any future situation where JWs are told by their organization to drink the "kool aid", this latest directive will play on their minds. They will be thinking: "Yes it sounds strange, impractical, crazy, but I remember that November 2013 Watchower that said we must be ready to obey even if it doesn't seem prudent from a human standpoint. Am I going to trust in Jehovah or cave in to fear? I must be loyal to Jehovah even if it costs me my imperfect life in this dying old system. . . I must remember the closing words of Song 7: 'No longer as living for ourselves, For you we shall live or die'"
Sure, not every JW will drink the "Kool Aid" should the GB go all Jim Jones on them. But with roughly 8 million JWs what percentage do you think will obey? What percentage of JWs do you think are brainwashed enough to do it? If we conservatively say that 2% will obey that would amount to 160,000 deaths! That's roughly Jonestown x 160!!
But don't lose sight of the fact that it is already happening with the blood issue! I'm sure more JWs have died refusing blood over the years than the number of deaths at Jonestown.
so, normally if i go to a meeting i sit and don't say a word through the entire ordeal.
however today i just could not keep my big mouth shut.. it was funny that i even got called on....three times none-the-less.
of course 99% of the sheeple just sat with blank looks on their mugs this morning.
3 TTATT bombs from piztjw!
one thing (among many) that always bothered me about jw teachings is what happens to the soul when we die.
sure god could be capable of creating a body and implanting it with all of our life experiences an memories.
but how would not be a just a clone instead of being actually us?
clarity: "Island Man it is not about "value", it is about experience."
Yes, our life experiences shape our brain which in turn shapes our personality. Thus our life experiences become hardwired in some way, into our brain. So if the brain is perfectly cloned then all those hardwired experiences are also cloned and clone will end up with the same memory of those experiences and the same personality shaped by those experiences. The clone would be the same person with recollection of the same experiences.
The psyche is a product of the brain. Perfectly duplicate the brain and you have the same psyche - the same person. Don't forget the fact that the experiences are past events so even if you're talking about resurrecting the absolute same body with the absolute same atoms and molecules and cells, etc, the experiences will still not be an actual part of the person (in the way you seem to imply) because they would still be past events that no longer exist in the present but exist only as the imprint they created on the brain. So duplicating the brain with the same imprints is no different.
In other words our past experiences which have shaped our personality are all stored in the brain. Duplicate the brain and you have the same person with the same experiences and the same personalty or psyche shaped by those experiences.
would love to hear comments on what is being said on the paragraph which states that if the wt demands you drink the kool aid, you should do it - even if you don't understand why!.
.
look forward to any replies..
A good TTATTy comment for an older Awake JW to make might be:
"Back in the 70's when the organization suggested or strongly hinted that the end can or will come in 1975, some brothers were willing to quit their jobs and sell their property to spend the remaining time pioneering. Are we willing to follow their wise and faithful example of obeying what the organization says even if it does not seem sound from a human standpoint? We know that whatever the organization teaches us will always be for our benefit."
Or
"Back before the 1980s the organization taught that organ transplants were wrong. It may have seemed like an unsound thing to do to refuse an organ transplant if your life depended on it. But doubtless there were brothers who faithfully died obeying what may have seemed like an unsound teaching. Are we willing to follow their example of faithfulness? We know that whatever the organization teaches us will always be for our benefit."
That same paragraph also has a contradiction in it. It tells Witnesses to be ready to obey what the org says even if it doesn't appear sound but then later down it says now is not the time to put our trust in human institutions (but the org is a human institution). This irony can be pointed out.
"The paragraph tells us now is not the time to be putting our trust in human institutions. Psalm 146:3 tells us not to put our trust in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs. Therefore we should always trust what the governing body is telling us in print because we know our relationship with Jehovah - our salvation - depends on it. But we should never put our trust in human institutions."
That ought to give some a fit of cognitive dissonance.
one thing (among many) that always bothered me about jw teachings is what happens to the soul when we die.
sure god could be capable of creating a body and implanting it with all of our life experiences an memories.
but how would not be a just a clone instead of being actually us?
Personally, I don't see it as an issue. We are fully/purely physical beings. Our consciousness and self-awareness is a result of the work of the brain. Therefore, if a person dies and his brain fully decays and a new brain is created that is perfectly identical to the original brain just before death, then the exact same consciousness will be recreated and the person will, in actuality, be resurrected.
The copy will be different only in the sense that different atoms and different cells are being used. But the practical value of the atoms and cells are identical so there will be identical sentience. The copy will not feel like a copy; will not be able to separate or distinguish its present sentience from the sentience of the original.
It only seems wrong if you assume that there is some intangible, mysterious, ethereal aspect to our consciousness. As sentient beings we are the product of our brain. Reproduce the brain and you reproduce the person. Is it a clone? Yes. Does that invalidate it being a resurrection? No. Clone vs Resurrection is a false dichotomy. It is a clone AND a resurrection. (not that I believe the bible)
Let me illustrate it this way: If you lend me a 100 dollar bank note I owe you 100 dollars. Do I have to return to you the exact same hundred dollar bank note in order to repay you? If I give you a different bank note are you going to cry foul saying it's not a valid repayment but just a clone of the original note? No. Yes, technically I'm returning a "clone" but it has the exact same value indistinguishable from the value of the original. Similarly it's the value, the effect, of sentience - identical sentience - that counts and not the technicality of a spatially non-identical body. It is the identical construction of the brain - the mind - that counts.
Another illustration that is a bit closer: If your house got destroyed and you built another house with different materials on the exact same spot is it wrong to say you rebuilt your house? Re-built, Re-surrect.
Resurrect comes from a Greek word that means stand again. So once the same person - the same sentience, the same mind - is able to stand again, to live again - by whatever means - then the person has been resurrected. So perfectly cloning the brain can be viewed as a means of resurrecting rather than a disqualification or an invalidation of the resurrection.
if you think you can go to the wt and ask for a "straight answer" .... think again..... .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gipomx7wnyy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/war-of-words-breaks-out-among-jehovahs-witnesses-2361448.html.
Damn! LostGeneration just beat me to it!
Anyway, you can click the Y!A link below to see Witnesses' reaction to the video posted above by LostGeneration:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130524203653AASkn6P
today my mom called me three times at work to tell me how "worried" she was about my spirituality.. i so wanted to tell her some ttatt but just said, "mom, i am fine spiritually.
if i am ever in trouble spiritually, i will tell you.
meanwhile, i would really appreciate it if you left my relationship with god a private matter.".
False Prophets
Read Deuteronomy 18:21,22 and compare it with the organization's history of false predictions from way back in the days of Russel. Then you can suggest she look in the Reasoning Book under "False Prophets" to see what the organization says about Deuteronomy 18:21,22. She will not find those two verses cited or quoted in the false prophets section. Ask her why that it is. Why did they cite verse 20 but completely leave out any mention of verses 21 and 22. Maybe because their history exposes them as guilty of what verse 21 says?
If you have an English Standard Version of the bible you can share Luke 21:8 with her. In that verse Jesus warns his followers not to go after those saying "The Time is at hand!". Then ask her if she is aware that C.T. Russel published a volume of Studies in the Scriptures that contained false end time predictions and that was entitled . . . "The Time Is At Hand!"
Pedophile Issue
Ask her if she is aware that in the past when a victim of pedophilia went to the elders they would urge the victim not to go to the police and that they will drop any proceedings against the accused if there isn't a second witness. Ask why the organization didn't want the victims going to the police. Ask her why the organization couldn't report such crimes to the police and let them do their investigation and use the results of their investigation as the "second witness". Ask her about all the little ones stumbled out of the truth because of this vile policy then read Matthew 18:5,6 and ask her: "What would be the fate of an organization who, for the sake of its reputation, enacted cold-hearted policies that stumbled little ones?"
